The State of Treasury Work and Recruitment (The Treasury Recruitment Company)

Announcer  00:05

Welcome to the Treasury Update Podcast, presented by Strategic Treasurer, your source for interesting treasury news, analysis, and insights in your car, at the gym, or wherever you decide to tune in.

 

Craig Jeffery  00:19

Welcome to the Treasury Update Podcast. I’m your host, Craig Jeffrey. I’m joined by Mike Richards from the Treasury Recruitment Company. Welcome, Mike.

 

Mike Richards  00:27

Hello, sir. Great to be back on, sharing this time with one of my favorite podcasters, you know, because we do this on a regular basis, just like you, and it’s like we know what we’re doing one day.

 

Craig Jeffery  00:39

Yeah. And Mike is the infamous host of the Treasury Career Corner, the podcast. This podcast is in the show notes as well. Today’s episode is called The State of Treasury Work and Recruitment. So, Mike, as we talk through these things, that maybe we could start off with the state of work. We’ve had conversations before about everybody moved home, hybrid, very rare, hybrid, and work from home was going to be the norm, and now it seems to be changing. What’s what’s shifting? How is this turning out?

 

Mike Richards  01:10

I think I think you’ve described it really well, that it’s shifting, but it’s like one of those, you know, back in the day, used to have those diagrams where they sort of swung one way, and then swinging back, and then it sort of reaches generally that equilibrium sort of thing, and it just settles. The general settlement now, I think, is two to four days a week in the office, so you know, three days a week in the office, one, you know, Fridays and Mondays, usually working from home, unless there’s a corporate event, and by that I mean you’re having to do, you know, certain things, maybe you’re doing bond raising, capital raising, or you’ve got particularly busy part of the year. I’m seeing people in the office generally two to three days a week, said it throughout the year, all our treasury career corner lives. Treasury, by its very nature, is collaborative, so I’m seeing people going back to the office, and I think that’s a good thing. I was commenting, actually, on our end of year podcast, and a couple of ones that I’ve done recently that have said that Treasury is about meeting people, working together, work problem solving. If you want to work in a discipline where it’s not like that, it’s much more focused, if you like, you know, say tax or certain, you know, finance disciplines, you’re looking at something where it is solitary, you know, so it can just be one person doing it, if you like. So, I think Treasury is very different to that.

 

Craig Jeffery  02:31

You know, maybe 60% in office, 40% home is kind of the general average. I know we’ve seen it also on the consulting side, it used to be almost all on site now, post-COVID, usually there’s some on site, but most of it’s most of its remote. If you can find the tools and make that work, but as this new environment emerges, like you said, the pendulum swings, reaches some type of equilibrium. Treasury leaders, treasurer’s, what should they be thinking about from this out of office, in office perspective, what’s the value of each, and if the workforce is changing, is this reflecting that the newer generations coming in, taking roles, is what’s happening here?

 

Mike Richards  03:12

Yeah, this is a new workforce this century. I wrote about this in an article about pre-COVID. Actually, it’s not about you anymore. It’s about them, and the point with that was, for instance, I’ll give it the practical story. So, there was one of my clients in Chicago, and they were wanting to put all they were trying to hire, and what they were looking at doing was, first thing they were going to do, whatever level it was going to be, they were going to give a case study to a candidate, saying, “If you want to join us, create this case study. It helps us, you know, see if you’re good for consulting. If it’s good, and I was like, guys, people won’t do that. They don’t even know who you are. They don’t love you yet. You need them to love you, lovely, you know, bit of TLC. You know, they want to actually know about you, like you, trust you. And then they’ll be engaged in the process, and then they’ll go through the hoops, oh yeah, you’re right, that’s a good idea. So we reversed the process, they would meet some of the staff or coffees, and once they were bought in, I said, then they’ll do all this different stuff. On a wider sense, that’s what a lot of treasurer’s need to think about, they need to put themselves 1015 years back in their careers, what were they like as treasurer managers, as assistant treasurer, think back, what was top of, you know, top of funnel, top of mind for them, if you like, what were they thinking about with their treasury careers, and actually think about that when you’re offering a position to someone, they need to make sure that they are, when they’re selling the job, when you’re interviewing someone, it’s not a one-way process, it’s a two-way process. Someone comes in, you’re going to interview them, and you’ve got your, you’ve got your notes there, if you like, right? Okay, so let’s, let’s go through this, and you give them a real interrogation, I get them, they’ll walk away, they don’t need your job, that’s one of the other things, you know, that there are a number of vacancies out there, it’s not just an employer’s market.

 

Craig Jeffery  05:04

Yeah, so has that changed? I mean, sometimes there’s a buyer’s market, there’s a seller’s market. Does the supply and demand have some general impact? But it sounds like you’re talking about a secular trend, but that that’s probably a good fit into the shifting into treasury salary trends and insights. What are some of the key trends? I mean, I know both our countries had a major election for top of the organization. What are you seeing?

 

Mike Richards  05:27

If we take it from a global perspective, I think finally all of the markets are rising again. There was a sort of settling post-COVID, wasn’t very much movement in salaries, you know, there’s a flattening plateau as everyone got used to different ways of working, and if you know, you, as you came out, COVID, people saying, “Well, I want a pay rise. I mean, look, you’re lucky to have a job. Okay, you’re lucky, I want a bonus. Good luck. Talk to you next year. Finally, bonuses are getting back to normal. The world of work has settled down a little bit, so salaries are starting to rise now. I would say, for the UK markets, they’ve been really depressed for quite a while. You know, when you’re US, some of our US clients, when they say, ‘Oh, we want to recruit in the UK, and we can help them with that, and they, when we then come up with their salaries, they’re like, ‘Really, is that all? And it really, there’s a mature treasury market, lots of treasurer’s, which is causing a lot of competition, whereas when they jump across the Atlantic to our US clients and recruiting in the US, their salaries are much, much higher relative to the UK. However, and in between that sits Europe as well, but I would also say that the costs are that much higher. You know, I’ve seen you this year in New York, and caught up with you in various places. You buy a coffee here in the UK, it’s two three pounds. You’re lucky to get change out of $10 if you buy the same coffee in New York. The cost of living is higher, taxes are higher, and I think that’s also driven that we’ve seen clients when we’ve recruited down into Texas and some of the other states where they’re trying to build up their treasury teams or build up, you know, complete centers that everyone’s moving down there because there’s a lack of income tax, but then all the other taxes they get put on top of them, you know, so there’s, you know, property taxes, all the other things, it’s actually very much more tax led rather than actual just position led, so that’s been one of the considerations I’ve seen from a lot of people, but yeah, I mean, treasurer’s, as always, are getting paid really well. We’ve seen that through our salary survey, but it moves as people are moving from sort of operational in their roles, we, you know, we, you know, we’re not going to talk AI too much, but I’ve noticed that the shift of operational treasury jobs are moving more and more to lower cost centers, cheaper locations, so it means that when people are trying to get hold of good treasury specialists, analysts, that can be tough, because you know, getting those guys straight out of university is a challenge, sort of thing, as well.

 

Craig Jeffery  08:05

What about on the recruitment side, and the length of time for recruitment, is that has that shifted at all this year? You know, pre or post election, or just based on the economy? What are you seeing?

 

Mike Richards  08:18

The market as a whole has got better post, you know, post-election, we had that in the UK. We had our election, and it wasn’t about who got, you know, voted in, whichever party. Similar way with you guys, actually, people are, oh, actually, now we’re going to recruit. It was more certainty, you know, markets are less volatile, they like certainty. Great, now we can progress with our plans and move on. In terms of recruitment trends, we were saying before the show, recruitment has been pretty challenging in terms of timescale, because I’ve been working with Joe, our guy in America, we’ve talked about how the fact is that lots of people have a vacancy, someone leaves and they will cover internally, then the second person leaves, like, oh, we need to recruit, and the first thing that, oh, we’ll go to our in-house team, we’ll go to our HR guys, they don’t know what treasury is, that you, and that’s not a criticism of them, they might try and learn it, but the fact is, they might have 10 other vacancies on their desk, and then the treasurer comes in, oh, I need a treasury analyst, they go, Who are you again? What do you, what do you do? You’re that treasury guy, right? And they, they’re like, yeah, I need to recruit eight, you know, five sales guys, three or four finance guys. Oh, and the treasury person. And what we found a lot of the time is they’ll first, you know, first they go on LinkedIn, they get this raft of people who are looking for any job, they don’t care about a job with you, they just want their next role. It’s not actually a career move, so they get all those, they go through all that process. And I had that earlier this year with one of my clients, they had 85 people, they screened that this was the treasurer, they’d had 200 applications, the deputy treasurer had 885 I think she reviewed. Good, and then after three weeks, you called me, said, ‘Bright, Mike, we need someone. I was like, ‘How’s it gone with the 85? She went, ‘I’m calling you, are like, that’s how good it was. And then we found the person, but I was found someone that wasn’t looking for a job. They weren’t. They are on LinkedIn, but they don’t have an updated their profile in two, three years, because they knew that I would go, and you know, it’s not a big sales pitch. It’s more that’s what we do, that’s why we exist as treasurer specialists. I’m talking to treasurers and treasury analysts and managers, and they’re coming to me, said, “Right, how do I make the next move? Who do I go to? They don’t apply to jobs on LinkedIn. It’s just that’s just a circus.

 

Craig Jeffery  10:39

Yeah, it’s a pretty broad net. It’s, you know, 85 people applied for this position, 132 have applied for this position, you know, very quickly it’s like, okay, that’s a, that sounds overwhelming, and you can filter through it, but there’s a, there’s that direct connection there. Yeah, so as you look at 2025 and I appreciate your comments, the market likes certainty, finance likes certainty, and that helps with recruiting, figuring out which way to go. Maybe you’re an industry that’s in favor, out of favor with whatever the new administration happens to be, but there’s certainty now, and so the general market picks up as you look out at 2025 I’d love to hear some of your predictions in the treasury space could be recruitment, could be other things. What are some of your top predictions?

 

Mike Richards  11:24

Well, let’s do the recruitment piece. Just first of all, I think the challenge, and you and I, we were AFP Nashville, and I was talking to a lot of the delegates there, and then caught up post that with Jim Cates, outgoing, leaving the AFP soon, retiring, and you know, great guy, and we were, he was talking about his trying to get treasury into universities, trying to get a broader understanding of treasury, and that’s where I see it’s an opportunity, it’s a blessing and a curse, though. I think, as well, because lots of fresh graduates are coming out, they’re doing their MBA, and they, they’re still going, I need to learn about what’s treasury again, and actually, we, we see this, we, you know, I’ve done various initiatives this year where we got, you know, produced, we’re going to produce more actually next year, actually, how to coach finance graduates and junior finance guys about treasury, because clients are coming to us and saying, right, I want a junior treasurer analyst, but I need them to have this depth and breadth of experience. I need them to understand about corporate finance, and they have them on, and you’re like, really, they’ve literally just got out of university three, four months ago, and they’re in their first role now. Actually, I did speak to a client this year, and we’ve got a blog post coming out about it, and this actually happened a couple of years ago, and it’s a real story. This junior guy came up to him, finance analyst, started as a treasury intern, if you like, and he said, “I need to learn more about the rest of the company. Said, “Great, go have a coffee. Okay, thanks very much. Said, “What? He said, go have a coffee with people in other people in the company, reach out to someone, and on a Friday morning you have a couple of hours that he said, put it in the canteen, or you know, I’ll pay for it, go out, have a coffee with that person, understand the job they do, and he went started to do this, and he was doing it every sort of two, three weeks, came back to his boss after a couple of months, you know, after a quarter, said, “Oh, this is going well, but I really want to learn more. He said, “Drink more coffee. It was like it can’t be. He said, “How many times you’re doing? He said, “Well, and they, they measured it, and I think he’d had like five meetings over two, three months. He said, “Have a meeting every single week. Is that he said, I don’t care whether it is coffee, you know. Do we like have breakfast? What he did was he then lent into it, did it one within probably about six months from that. He was being head hunted internally for roles. He was so well networked, he was the most junior guy in their team, and people would go to him and said, ‘Look, go and speak to George. Is that why? I said, ‘Well, George knows someone that knows something about that, or knows someone in tax, or and it was a really good way, so you know, pay for more coffees, have more Starbucks cards, or whatever, but that’s one of the things I’ve seen at the junior levels, I think mid levels, there is, you know, lots of treasury guys, again, we met lots of them in Nashville that are frustrated, they can’t get their boss’s job. There has been post-COVID a lot of people not moving around. They were starting to see some churn there. There’s been a bit of a log jam at the senior table. Someone said to me the other day, “Why don’t these guys move? I said, “Well, because they’re doing jobs they quite enjoy, and now they are starting to move on. They’re actually in roles, and they’re saying, right, you need to move or I need to move on. We’re starting to see some movement in the market.

 

Craig Jeffery  14:46

I wonder, how much that’s also related to they have a mortgage at two and a half percent, and if they move, it’s going to be six.

 

Mike Richards  14:52

Yes, exactly.

 

Craig Jeffery  14:55

It just changes. Any other predictions for 2025?

 

Mike Richards  15:00

AI, iterative learning, all the stuff I know you guys are doing a webinar about it, and I saw that the other day, and I think that’s great. I was talking to a treasurer, actually, who I’m going to talk to about it on my podcast in a couple of weeks’ time. He’s, he’s all over it. He’s saying, ‘Look, I used to use… He’s quite an early adopter of Chat GPT, and some of the machine learning tools he uses in their own personal life. He was saying to me that he used it, and he measured it. Actually, I don’t know why, but or how he managed to get it, but he consulted with that about sort of 50, 60 times when it’s first coming out. And then the following year he used it 150 times. This past year he’s used it every day, if not more than once a day, both in his personal life and his work life. And he said there will come a time, quite soon, he said, where people won’t know what the world was like without AI. You know, I’ve got a 13 year old son, you know, he’s he’s starting to use it, and I, you know, there is a danger there. I’m having to sort of vet some of his homework assignments, because I’m saying, right, how much are you doing, and how much are you using these tools to help you. The fact is, I think that’s going to be a bigger thing within Treasury. I think it’s actually a positive thing as well. Gave a session earlier this year about all the different ways that different treasuries were using AI in their daily jobs. Is the I gave this the session to an association because the chairman of their associate, I don’t really believe in it. I don’t think this. I thought, okay, so you’re going to be replaced by a robot soon. You know, the fact is, if you’re not going to embrace these new tools, and treasuries are amazing at using the tools. I think that you’re just going to rapidly become a dinosaur. You’re going to become shifted out of treasury.

 

Craig Jeffery  16:48

That seems like a good quotable, quotable topic there. You’re going to become a dinosaur. They’re getting better at such a rapid rate. People are becoming very well versed in it and learning, and that’s it’s a good, good type of technology to build skills in, so I think there’s, there’s a lot of room. Yeah, so we have, we have a head to head on AI and machine learning and finance, so different, different vendors are talking about that. We did a survey on AI, AI, generative AI, and machine learning in Treasury the beginning of 2024 we probably will revisit that again, see what’s changed over time. So let’s move on to the your salary survey. I mean, your company’s done the salary survey for quite a long time.

 

Mike Richards  17:33

20 plus years. We’ve got, we’ve got white.

 

Craig Jeffery  17:35

Is it really?

 

Mike Richards  17:36

Yeah, we’ve got white paper coming out that’s actually associated with TIS, and actually that looks at the past 20 years, some of the trends, some of the things, and I gave a lot of commentary about that, but actually, and we’re just shifting it a little bit as well. We were doing it one stage every quarter, but realized that people don’t need it quarter, they need it half yearly. So we’re just shifting a little bit, so we’re going to run it. We’ve just ran the most recent one, but we’re going to start to run it in January and July each year, because that’s when people are generally having their pay reviews, or it’s around that time. But again, in machine learning way, now people take it, takes less than 30 seconds to take part. treasurysalary.com What’s great about that is they, and someone was told me, “Oh, so you go through the data, but no, the data goes into our CRM. It’s confidential, but the great thing is I press a few buttons, boom, salary survey comes out. How did you do that? I said, well, 510, years ago I would have to, that would take me two days. Now, boom, put it into the engine, two minutes later, and it’s done a 60 page report, and that’s what people need. They want the data now. If you, you know, oh yeah, I’ll get that data to you next week. Get out, like it helps you now.

 

Craig Jeffery  18:50

So, what are some of the headlines? I mean, well, first of all, how many people are taking the survey?

 

Mike Richards  18:54

1200 people globally. It spreads right the way across the US, the UK, and Europe, what I would say is actually the biggest growth is actually in our US sample size that now matches our UK sample size. The UK used to, you know, we originally started the company many years ago in the UK, and now we do much, you know, I saw you over Vegas, and we’ve done everything else, so I do a lot of travel across the US. The US sample is just getting bigger and bigger, you know. We’ve seen, you know, growth all the way across. I’m just looking at some of the figures here. There has been flattening some of our sample sizes, so some of the figures are sort of, again, like that sort of evening up. We’re getting the proper averages, and if you like, you’ve got those bell curves. I’ve seen a lot of movement from assistant treasurer level up to deputy treasurer, where people are then getting the sort of, you know, the pay rises, but there’s a lot more, you’ve seen it as well yourself, Craig, that on LinkedIn, this has been one of those years where, oh, I’ve got a new role, and actually, when you look at them, people, they haven’t got a new, they’ve not moved company, they’ve got a new position, they’ve you. Who got a promotion, people, and instead of recruiting, and I’ve encouraged it with people as well. If you don’t look after your internal staff, they will move, and then you’re going to have to do a full process externally, as we’ve said, you’re going to have an empty desk there for six months, people will leave, so it’s sometimes better to pay up now, and look, there comes a natural time when people need to move on, but that’s one of the things I’ve said as well.

 

Craig Jeffery  20:25

Okay, so let’s let’s look at the US, UK, and Europe. Let’s let’s pick global treasurer. What’s what’s happening in each of those three three areas, or if you, you combine, if you combine the UK and broader Europe, that’s fine too.

 

Mike Richards  20:40

Well, you know, numbers wise, you’re looking at, you know, global treasuries in the US are hitting about $300,000 as an average, on average. In Europe, it’s less than that, it’s down at sort of euros wise, I think we’re about 240 In the UK, global, it’s about similar, but it’s UK, you know, so it’s about 240,000 I think, two to 240,000 pounds, but what I would say is the total compensation adds another third to two thirds on top of that. Certainly, in the US, it’s less so in the UK, it’s better in Europe. So, if you like average salaries, I mean average bonuses, well, anyone can get the full survey. If you take part in the survey, we send you the latest one as well. But you’re seeing that, you know, the average total compensation for those global treasuries is topping around the 400,000 including base and bonus. And in addition to that, that’s the average. What I have seen is there are some not that far below the average, you know, so they might have a base salary of a 250 but then they might get really good bonus of 101 50, so that’s pushing them up in total comp. And then I’ve also seen a lot of others higher than that as well, you know, I’ve seen the, you know, some of the top people, you know, some of the top people in our survey have gone over the half million total comp.

 

Craig Jeffery  22:04

On the total comp change from a year ago, what’s the what’s the increase by those those roles, roughly?

 

Mike Richards  22:10

So we’re about five, you know, five to 10% overall. I mean, I think from 2023 it was a sort of 10% step up. I’ve actually seen a gradual growth at sort of end of, you know, Q 2023 to q1 it didn’t move that much, but then people were getting their pay reviews, then they were coming through, so now they’re about 10% up overall.

 

Craig Jeffery  22:34

That’s a, that’s a pretty big, pretty big move in the last year. What about just talk for about treasury analysts for a moment? What’s what’s going on there? What kind of bump are they seeing year over year?

 

Mike Richards  22:44

They’re getting a bump, but it’s not a big bump, you know. They, okay, their base salaries are creeping up, sort of thing. The crazy thing I find is the comparison. If someone was to say to me, you know, where would you start out as a treasurer? If you’re a treasury analyst in the, you know, and you’re starting your career, you’re two to three years in, or you’ve just come out of, and you want to get your job as a junior treasurer analyst, and someone said, “Oh, I’ve got a green card, I get on the plane now, because a treasury analyst in the UK, on average, will earn 45 to 50,000 as a base salary, in the US, average 85,000 I would say, on average, you know, so there are people getting more, depending on where you are with Treasury Analyst in New York, two years salary, we’ve been recruiting throughout this year, a couple of roles like that, $100,000 and people like, wow, that’s a lot, it’s not really, because the cost of living, tax, everything else is so high, most of your earnings go, sort of thing.

 

Craig Jeffery  23:44

Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s been a very, let’s just say transformative recently on the cost of living. I don’t know if this is a salary survey question. I think there’s, we’ll put it in the show notes where they can get information to fill out the survey, get more information. You know, we talked about AI briefly. What do you see is is happening either with the expectations for new skills or evolving skills, and how is that playing a factor in individual raises at the micro level? Are you, is that just is that just a concept or is that a reality?

 

Mike Richards  24:18

So, yeah, in terms of if you’re starting out your treasury career, and you are qualifying, and you’ve got data skills, computer science, and things like that, that’s what you should be doing, not just that, finance combined with that. One of my clients, he was coaching one of his friend’s sons, who was actually looking at what majors they were going to choose, and he was saying, “Oh, I’m gonna do business and finance. He was like, “Yeah, don’t. Well, he said, “No, do business or finance, choose which of those you want to do, because he’s also quite good at data science, it, and things like. He said, “Get that in there as well. He said, “Because they’re blending, they’re merging. Okay, and he said, if you come out of there, then you’re going to be in high demand. Oh, do you think so? He said, no, I know. So, I want you to come and work for my company. Literally, I’ll give you an internship now. He said, I haven’t even.. I’m just about to start, or he was just making his choices. He went, I know, call me. Who’s that? Oh, okay. And he like, and he said, if any of your friends are doing the same thing, get them to call me. You know, I’ve spoken to a number of other companies, they’ve got like an open budget, you know, if you can get anyone with data skills, get them in, like, now they just keep hiring them. It’s not an area I want to go and do. I don’t want to be a data recruiter or IT recruiter, but some of those guys, and it recruits I see, and when they get in, that they are, they’re doing rather well, but the getting the flow of skilled professionals to do that, that’s where they’re struggling.

 

Craig Jeffery  25:53

The treasury data scientist or data recruitment seems like that’s an area you need to start emphasizing over the next couple of years, Mike.

 

Mike Richards  26:00

There was a guy earlier this year who’s last year actually sent me his resume and buried down at the bottom it was Python and he decided to do that because it was a personal interest of his. I went, why is it down here? He said, well, I decided to choose it as an evening class because I could bring it into my daily job and everything else. I went look in the nicest way, I can’t represent you, so well. Why? What’s wrong? I said, you move that to the top of your resume. I don’t, you don’t need me. You’ll get a job. And I said, I would recommend you go to this company, this company, this company. They weren’t. I said they will interview. He had a job within three weeks, and he was just that, oh wow, you know. And it was lovely. He gave me a gift as a thank you for it, and I was very grateful for the gift, but it was just, I said, “Look, you know, you’re he’s promised that whenever he’s recruiting in the future, which he will, and replaces himself, he’s going to call me. So he’s paying it forward in a way as well.

 

Craig Jeffery  26:52

Nice. I hope that gift was like a really clever Python script.

 

Mike Richards  26:56

No, no, it was something very much more drinkable.

 

Craig Jeffery  27:01

Yeah, looking forward to your next Treasury Career Corner Live. And I’ll see you in either the UK or the US at some point soon.

 

Mike Richards  27:10

Yeah, I’ll be speaking in Boston, being doing Texpo next year. We’ve got a New York event in March, so we’re doing, and again, six or seven events across the US, four across UK and Europe, so yeah, we’ll see at one of those. Great to see you.

 

Craig Jeffery  27:25

if you spend over 182 and a half days in the US, or 183 or more days, you might have to start paying taxes here, so.

 

Mike Richards  27:31

I know, yeah, my accountant looks out for that as well. It’s like, go home. Okay, all right.

 

Craig Jeffery  27:37

I like it here.

 

Mike Richards  27:38

Yeah, I love it. Please.

 

Craig Jeffery  27:39

Any final thoughts?

 

Mike Richards  27:40

Yeah, no, my final thoughts were, you know, again, I was reflecting on that a moment ago. I think a lot of treasurers and treasury professionals haven’t really thought about themselves this year, they’ve just gone on and done their jobs, and we said before the show, I’m getting lots of clients, candidates reflecting now, or doing this self-reflection moment. Oh, what am I going to do for 2025 They’re sending me their resumes, to be honest. They should have been sending me their resume six months ago. They should, you know, you should be having a coffee with yourself once a month, having a once a quarter at least, and say, “Right, where am I going now? What am I doing? Take a moment to look at yourself, what’s my plan for this this quarter this year? Where am I going on? And I think people are getting better at that slowly, because if you don’t invest yourself, your companies aren’t, you’re there, you work for them, that you need to invest in yourself and do things like that, I would say.

 

Craig Jeffery  28:40

That’s a clever way of talking about that self-reflection, like have a coffee with yourself. At first, it seemed the way you described it was really, really helpful. Mike, thanks so much for joining me on today’s discussion.

 

Announcer  28:57

You’ve reached the end of another episode of The Treasury Update Podcast. Be sure to follow Strategic Treasurer on LinkedIn. Just search for Strategic Treasurer. This podcast is provided for informational purposes only, and statements made by Strategic Treasurer LLC on this podcast are not intended as legal, business, consulting, or tax advice. For more information, visit and bookmark StrategicTreasurer.com.