Treasury Career Changes with Mike Richards

Craig Jeffery: 

Welcome to The Treasury Update Podcast. This is Craig Jeffrey. Today’s Treasury Update Podcast episode is with a friend of mine, Mike Richards. He’s the CEO of The Treasury Recruitment Company. He’s also the host of the Treasury Career Corner Podcast, which releases their podcast on Tuesdays. Mike, welcome back to The Treasury Update Podcast. 

Mike Richards: 

Craig, delighted to be back. And as we said, and we’ve said a few times, it’s quite weird to be this side of the microphone and you asking me questions. I’ve gotten used to it now. A hundred plus podcasts, myself, just like yourself. It’s great fun when we’re grilling our guests, getting to know them and everything else. But when it’s the other way, I’m just like, “Who? Me? You’re asking me a question? Hang on buddy. It’s my turn.” 

Mike Richards: 

But no, I’ll try my best and tell … Well, I try and give some advice to people in this weird, weird world that we live in nowadays. So yeah. Well, back to you Craig. This is your show. 

Craig Jeffery: 

There’s several different areas that I wanted to talk about that I was really interested in. One is about treasury positions. We’re in this rebound from the depths of the COVID 19 economic impact. And I say that, because one of the major banks’ chief economist talked about how we’re already in recovery from the sharpest, deepest, fastest recession. But as we rebound from it, what are you seeing that’s going on career-wise? 

Craig Jeffery: 

And I know we talked a little bit earlier. You said there’s some differences by region. So what are you seeing, and are things changing there? 

Mike Richards: 

In general terms, career-wise, the listeners today, this is what treasury professionals I think we’re born to do. It might sound like an ending, closing statement, but it’s more, you guys out there, you’re planning for this, you’re getting ready for financial crises. You’ve got focus on liquidity, risk management and everything else. 

Mike Richards: 

And that was really something that jumped out at me that I thought, “Do you know what? This is what you guys were born to do, and you’ve been doing it in different places.” And as you say, it’s been different in different areas. As Craig mentioned earlier, we cover the globe and we recruit predominantly UK, Europe and the US. And each of the regions has been different. I think the pace of COVID, if you like, and the reaction within different countries has been different. 

Mike Richards: 

Which has then had slight different effects. Some commonalities, but different effects with different people in different treasury teams and treasury departments. 

Craig Jeffery: 

If you take the UK, for example, is it different in general or is it by specific industries or what are you saying? Let’s start in the UK, your home base. 

Mike Richards: 

Basically, people were continuing to recruit right up until lockdown. And then lockdown came. Everyone said, “Right. Work from home. You’re not coming to the office for six months.” I made the joke that any other year, that beginning of April, you’d said to someone, “Oh, by the way, you’re going to work from home for the rest of the year,” blah, blah, blah. “Oh yeah, nice April Fools.” 

Mike Richards: 

And they’re like, “No, this is what’s happening.” Whilst it was previously seen as a benefit, people working from home is now a new norm in some ways that people are doing that. And I think that it’s had a positive effect in some ways that people have been seen to perform very well in certain situations. I think there’s a negative effect. 

Mike Richards: 

And certainly from talking to some of the UK operational level staff, very much ops, people have said about use of technology and stuff like that. It’s less about that. It’s more the interaction. People have said about, “Oh, but we have a Zoom call where we have a beer every Friday with all of the team,” and stuff like that. That’s all right, but that’s not sitting across the table and looking the person in the eyes. 

Mike Richards: 

If a treasury analyst has a problem, they go, “Oh, who do I look to? Hang on.” They look to their right, and there’s a brick wall. Same to the left. “Oh, do I call my boss? Do I call my boss’s boss?” I think it’s still that working from home piece still has to be worked out. I think as we return, and that’s what I’m seeing and a lot of the talk is about coming back in September, and as everyone returns post-vacation season, I think it will improve. 

Mike Richards: 

But I think it’s a bit more of a balance. I think certainly from the conversations I’ve had, one of the things I’ve picked up is that a lot of people will do maybe the working from home across the weekend. So the Friday and Monday, they’ll be at home. Tuesday, Wednesday, in the office, getting to see people, getting together. Some of the meetings’ still socially distance, using sanitizer during all that stuff. Face mask, if need be. 

Mike Richards: 

But then also, maybe the Thursdays, a bit more of the focus day as I do every week, and that’s meeting clients, meeting candidates. So it’s a new norm. It’s a new balance, really. 

Craig Jeffery: 

That’s an interesting perspective on how it’s going to change. When you come back, it might be more remote. You mentioned the, “Hey, I’m looking at the walls,” whether it’s a brick or sheet rock, or what-have-you. This … I don’t know if you want to call it socialization, but the face-to-face, the ability to have these casual conversations. The broader conversations that people pick up on, leading to discussions don’t happen, unless we’re intentional. 

Craig Jeffery: 

So how’s this impacting things like mentoring development, work on teams and projects? What’s falling apart in the work from home or what’s the negative side of that? 

Mike Richards: 

Well, I think you nailed it there a little bit. It’s not falling apart yet, but some of this … Pre-COVID, everything else, I’d be talking to treasurers. They’d be talking about how they were great technical treasury specialist and everything else. And then as we dug into it and people got more senior, we were talking a lot more with them, and I do still talk to them about how they’re more in charge of their teams and there’s much more communication going on. 

Mike Richards: 

They were technical specialists, there’s treasury managers. Now the communication specialist’s coaching and mentoring treasury teams. I said, “Great, what training have you had on that?” And they, “Well.” And I said, “Oh, so you’re acting as a mentor. Has someone mentored you in the past, shown you how to do that with maybe your softer skills or your coaching or communication skills?” 

Mike Richards: 

And if it’s a video call, there’s a blank face. If it’s a call like this, there’s a long pause. And I get that, pre-COVID, guys in treasury weren’t getting this coaching. And I think actually, they’re learning on the job now. I think a number of employers need to review this, because they are stuck, if you like. They’re trying to do it, but have they ever received any professional training? And the answer is usually no. 

Mike Richards: 

I think it’s an area where guys in treasury are doing well, because they are people that will take your situation and run with it and make the best out of it and everything else. But I think there’s a massive opportunity. So someone out there listening, I said this again on the call with some big treasurers and the head of the UK association of treasurers, I said, if someone came out with a remote coaching course for treasury professionals, I think it would sell out 10 times over. 

Mike Richards: 

Because they’re going, “Oh, how to coach working from home team members,” dah, dah, dah. It’s a massive issue, I think. People are getting through it, but how temporary is it? There are some of our clients … One of our clients actually said that the treasury team are going to be expected to come into the office once a week, right up to Christmas … Or post-Christmas rather. 

Mike Richards: 

So between now and then, but they’re not even thinking of, “We’re not going to see you.” That’s five months away. “We’ll see you over Zoom, but not going to see you in person.” Really, a very different situation than perhaps we’ve seen before. 

Craig Jeffery: 

As you’re talking with people and discussing this, there’s the initial, everyone goes home. They’re sheltering in place, and they’re connecting. They got past the initial tech issues and they’re working on the farther down tech issues. On the interaction side, did people take more to make sure they’re communicating in the beginning? And has that lightened up at all as we’ve gotten farther? Or are people being pretty consistent about making sure they’re staying in touch with those who are … 

Mike Richards: 

It’s the latter. I think there was also … I had a podcast this morning with a really leading treasurer who they have been absolutely whacked sideways, the food services company. So there are no food services. Nobody’s getting on a plane. Nobody’s going to a school. So their revenues are through the bottom, but they’ve raised massive amounts of liquidity. They’re right out of it. 

Mike Richards: 

But when I spoke to him about how they were getting on, and this also comes through from other treasurers, initially … And they were very proud of their teams and things, but I think initially they were just, “Let’s cope,” because no one knew how long it was going to last. It was different to the recession of 2008, because that was an unknown quantity. Everyone checked every stimulus you could, and you just had to sit on your hands and wait. 

Mike Richards: 

This time, people could plan their way out of it, but they were planning throughout it. They didn’t know you can plan for it, but you can’t predict and say, “Oh, it’s over. It’s over.” In Europe, they’ve got a second lockdown coming in. In Spain, they’ve got the various other bits. You’re still planning for it. But in treasury terms or going back to the individuals, planning for it, great. Everyone heads down. 

Mike Richards: 

And then a couple of months in that, “Oh, okay. This is different now. This is …” It wasn’t just, oh, cope this bit. Again, I spoke to Sally Ding, treasurer of Heathrow on this ACT panel. When I spoke to her, and we were talking live, and she said about how much more she’s had to do on a personal level with the team. So sitting down, doing more individual one to ones, doing more support. 

Mike Richards: 

Not because they need it, but because she feels that they deserve it, sort of thing. So it was more of a giving thing rather than them going, “Oh, help me, help me.” Because she just sensed that. And I think it was a really accurate way of doing it. And again, from the other treasurers that I’ve been having on panels and the other treasurers I’ve been talking to, it’s not new to them, but it’s a slightly more formal process, i.e, it’s in the diary. 

Mike Richards: 

Before, it was, “Oh, should we just grab a coffee together? Now you can’t grab a coffee, because you are hundred hours separated. You might be. So it’s actually, “Right. Let’s sit down. Let’s do a Skype. Let’s do a Zoom coffee.” And I think the treasurers that have done that are certainly showing greater signs of success when they’re coming out of this as well. 

Mike Richards: 

And I think a lot of them are coming out with renewed recognition from say the CFO. When I’m talking to them, they say, “Oh yeah, the CFO has really stepped up.” But also said to me, “Thanks for doing this, you really …” And then get in a little bit more of face-time. Because treasurers and treasury professionals at heart or this crisis, really, and getting us through to the other side, sort of thing. 

Craig Jeffery: 

They’re born for this type of environment, right? Treasury’s born for turbulence, though we do enjoy the calm times between the storms. But one last item on this, how treasury careers and the dimensions of work have changed. We’re meeting by Teams, meeting by Zoom. How do you see this change in the interaction? I know you do recruiting, so you’re on Zoom or Teams all the time. And does this help the introvert, help the extrovert? Or is this just an adaptation situation? 

Mike Richards: 

I heard a phrase, and someone said that all of the size of the Zoom windows are the same, no matter what level of seniority you are. And then the followup to it was, they felt that now the treasury analyst voice was being heard at the same level as a treasury manager, the same level as the deputy treasurer, same level as the treasurer. Because everyone was equal and things like that. 

Mike Richards: 

And technical phrase, I thought that was baloney. I don’t agree with that. I think that actually, it will bring to the fore front, some of the people that do have something to say. We do regular Zoom calls. As Craig just mentioned there, we got a group Zoom call from our bounce back program. And the fact is, I’ve had a couple of treasurers on there who’d say nothing throughout the call. 

Mike Richards: 

I’ve got a couple of treasury managers who really jump in. And as you say, I think it comes down to that introvert, extrovert. And we have to artificially bring out some of those introverts, because they’ve got some great stuff to tell us and some great feedback. And is it helped by being on Zoom? Possibly, yes. I think it is, because you’re able to tease them along, have more of a planned conversation, if that’s the right way. 

Mike Richards: 

You think, “Oh, actually I can bring Jane into this call,” because you can specifically ask Jane to call. Would you necessarily do that in the break room or in the treasury room, treasury team where you’re based and things like that? Maybe sometimes not. The Jane does get overruled or doesn’t really say much in a meeting. But in general terms, I think don’t see … 

Mike Richards: 

Not everyone is an extrovert in treasury, but introverts tend to still do very well, because of their analytical skills, because there’s things they can bring to the table and everything else. And so I think treasury is a very balanced discipline where people can actually contribute whatever their personality type. So, yeah, it is an interesting one. I’ve seen it myself firsthand from a lot of these guys on these big Zoom calls, and I’m like, “Come on, join us. 

Craig Jeffery: 

Maybe more treasury people are introverts. Versus being energized by discussions, they’re energized by data analysis and then do it. Who knows? But some great points, Mike, there. I wanted to talk about treasury career velocity or turnover. What’s the job situation look like? 

Mike Richards: 

It’s pretty static at the moment, but I think that’s- 

Craig Jeffery: 

Static low or? 

Mike Richards: 

Just paused. I saw, actually, I think it was from the AFP in the US, they did a study where they were saying that 80% of hiring was put on hold. And I was like, “Wow.” I was shocked there was that much hiring going on, because I hadn’t seen it. It was starting to. Q1 is traditionally quite quiet anyway. And actually, there’s a good point of this about bonuses and things like that. 

Mike Richards: 

People were collecting their bonus. And then you traditionally see things start to lift up, come March. People are saying, “Right, time for a move before, again, to the next cycle and my next bonus. And Mike, I want to make a move and everything else.” And actually, that’s just as March, April, boom, everything stopped. And there was still recruitment going on, but it tended to be much more operational level. 

Mike Richards: 

We actually had two maternity leave requirements, and as one of the treasurers said, he said, “Well, she’s having those twins, whether or not we get someone to replace her.” I was like, “Right.” He said, “So we’ve got to replace her.” And the person that is doing the job has been onboarded remotely, has never actually met face-to-face in the same room as the treasurer yet. 

Mike Richards: 

But they’d been recruited, and they’re onboarded as a senior treasury manager doing a great job. And it’s fantastic actually, but that’s been the weird thing is … And we’ve onboarded two or three other operational staff that are still working remotely and still doing their treasury jobs. Whereas normally, they‘d be through one or two rounds of interviews face-to-face. And that’s not stopped any of the process. What has stopped is that some of the more senior positions have been paused. 

Mike Richards: 

I think as we start to come into September, I particularly think it is going to pick up. Because I think it follows more natural terms. We are entering into now … We’re doing this recording ended of July, going into August, this vacation season. People are going to take their holiday, going to take a break. Whether it’s more of a staycation, doesn’t really matter. People are still going to use that. 

Mike Richards: 

Come September, October is going to pick up. I think what is different, and Craig, you prompted me, we’ve got our salary survey, which we’ll perhaps come on to. But one of the things that when I was doing a lot of the consideration of this, if you look at the level of businesses, so many of them have taken massive knock-backs. And one of the things here … So you look at aerospace, for instance, retail, no footfall, because people have to walk around. 

Mike Richards: 

The recruitment industry itself, some of the larger recruitment companies have been massive cutbacks. Those are the losers in this situation. Whereas you’ve got some of the winners might be more utility groups. So gas, electric, food delivery services, technology companies, and anyone that was manufacturing webcams is absolutely loving it now. You’ve got those and privately held companies. 

Mike Richards: 

Because in the past, sometimes, when they’re competing as public companies, they’re doing well as a big corporate, everything else. Those guys have been absolutely knocked sideways, which has meant that the follow-on effect is the people would get their bonus based on the turnover of the PLC or the success profitability of the PLC. They’re gone. Everyone was, “Oh yeah, my bonus is in the last quarter,” or “first quarter.” 

Mike Richards: 

They’re not here. That’s not going to be happening this year. They might recover partway. And so, that anchor, if you like, to holding them into their employment, that’s going. That’s disappearing now. That’s off, which is in itself going to be an interesting one. I think it’ll be a more fluid year for recruitment later on in the year. So yeah, look out. I think it could be … 

Mike Richards: 

I’m hopeful of a busier time. I think people are getting used to this new norm again and we’ll get on from there, really. 

Craig Jeffery: 

Yeah, yeah. And I guess as we look at, from a geographical perspective, US, UK, Europe, maybe others, any one of those rebounding faster than the others? 

Mike Richards: 

Well, Europe takes a longer vacation throughout the summer. They tend to … But that was actually later into close-down. But now it’s already starting to build up a bit earlier. We were quite surprised. We were doing a lot of work actually in the … Anyone wants to work in the Middle East, we’ve got a number of roles. And those guys are just carrying on. I’m recruiting three or four very major positions out there. 

Mike Richards: 

I’m like, “Wow.” UK, it’s ticking over. The US has … Well, certainly for us, recently we’ve seen it properly stopped. There was a little bit about, “Oh, are we coming back to life for a bit?” It’s come to a halt at the moment. I’m talking to a number of clients, but when I’m talking to them, it’s the typical situation. And what I mean by that, when someone … They’re looking to recruit, and I said, “If I kick off this campaign, might …” 

Mike Richards: 

“Well, the CFO is going to be away for the next two weeks.” “Oh, okay. Fine.” “And then, actually, I’m going away for a week,” and “Oh, okay.” So there’s that knock-on effect that when I’m talking to them, they say, “Well, actually, should we just kick off things in September? And I think that might also help.” We do predominantly a lot of work in the East Coast or Chicago, and things like that. They’re very busy areas for us.” 

Mike Richards: 

That’s starting to show a return to life, but probably 50% on what it was this time last year. But I think that’s an artificial thing, because when I’m talking to clients, they’re saying, “Well, actually, we’re just going to wait until post-summer. Everyone will be back on around either …” California’s going into a second lockdown, virtually. I think that’s really tough for the guys out there and people are saying, “Oh, we’re going to recruit in this lockdown.” 

Mike Richards: 

People want to meet people, and there’s economic things. And if other people in the team are on vacation, there’s an increased workload and you need a full team to be able to then focus your efforts on the recruitment piece as well. So yeah, I fully expect it to get back to more normal levels of recruitment, more fluidity, September through to December or September onwards, really. I think slow start. October, we’ll be flying. 

Craig Jeffery: 

Does the job situation, this activity in hiring and recruiting, does that pre-seed rebound or let’s call it full employment or does it trail? 

Mike Richards: 

It usually trails it, to be honest. And again … It’s funny, and I speak for treasury recruitment. I’m treasury specialist, but what I mean is when I talk to some of my friends in other financial recruitment areas … I’ve started to speak to some of these guys, and they’re seeing some recovery. They’re busier than we are and they always will be. And they always seemed to have been. 

Mike Richards: 

My rule of thumb is that we usually busiest three to six months after some of those guys. And also, when there’s a downturn … And I don’t know a hundred percent the facts, but when there’s a downturn, a lot of the time we’re still busy for another three months. And then our market catches a cold. Maybe it’s just the nature of treasury. A lot of the people we took were low volume, high value. 

Mike Richards: 

So typically speaking, the treasury professionals are very highly qualified, know their finance stuff. Some of those guys I talked to, they’re recruiting a more junior finance recruitment levels. So they might have … And also less planned, as it were. So they might pick up the phone, and clients doing new projects, they say, “Right, we want full FP&A, guys, and we want this, or “We want that.” 

Mike Richards: 

I don’t get a phone call, whichever says, “Hey, I need four treasurers.” I wish I did. It’d be great Christmas time. But you don’t get that. You get, “My treasurer is going to move on in three months,” or “He’s coming to retirement,” or “She is,” or “She might be going off maternity leave. I’m actually going to need someone for a year.” It’s a much more planned, “Oh, I’m talking to them now.” “When’s that going to kick off?” “Oh, November.” 

Mike Richards: 

It’s a much more strategic planned changes a lot of the time. That’s what happens within treasury, I think, in general. 

Craig Jeffery: 

In terms of working from home and career mobility, you mentioned the Middle East, you’ve got a number of high-level jobs open. Hey, we’re living in the work-from-home environment, and that might become the normal environment, it seems. Does this mean that treasurers are going to be working in lots of different locations that might differ from where their company’s headquarter is? 

Craig Jeffery: 

I know some people have like, “Hey, I’m moving to the beach” or “I’m moving someplace else.” A couple anecdotes about that. They tended to travel anyway and they just said, “I’m going to live where I want. As long as I have high internet and can get to a major airport, I’m good.” Is that going to change where people are working from? 

Mike Richards: 

I think it will, based on its country. So in the US it’s much more practical that you might have someone Midwest doing a lot more … Exactly, as you say there, Craig, with your anecdote, that they might have been traveling for work before. They might not have to travel so much now, but it might be one week out. And again, when I’m talking to … 

Mike Richards: 

I was talking to a client just last night, actually, and he was talking about that one to two weeks out of four, he will go to the headquarters, which is a plane flight away. He’ll either do two weeks there and then two weeks back home. And it doesn’t make that much of a difference for him. Or the actual thing is, as you say, people don’t have to be in work all the time. They can Zoom. 

Mike Richards: 

I think there will be greater flexibility in working. And it’s funny, actually, my colleague, Katie, was talking about the European markets and I’ll just bring it back to that. She said that working from home isn’t alien in Europe, but most businesses set up to accommodate this prior to COVID. Yeah, they were. But the actual fact … I then made a comment, “But often it wasn’t practical, but actually I think it was also frowned upon.” 

Mike Richards: 

“Oh, well, he’s at home this week?” “Is he? Oh, right. Okay.” So he’s not actually working all the time. Is he picking up the kids from school or is he walking the dog or … No, people were in their home offices, probably working sometimes longer hours. And people have said that there’s been a lot of longer working a lot of the time, and then if you didn’t travel for an hour and a half, did you then spend that actually getting up at 8:00 AM? Or at the desk rather for 8:00 AM and still there at 8:00 PM sometimes? 

Mike Richards: 

And I think, there’s been a lot of that. But coming back to the geographic question, I think certainly I’ve seen that in the UK. I’ve seen it in Europe. Seen it reflected somewhat in the US. I haven’t seen it huge amount, because I think at the time when we were doing some of our searches, our first search was locally anyway. So if we were looking in New York, there’s a massive population of New York treasury professionals and the same in Chicago and the same in a couple of other locations. 

Mike Richards: 

So we were able to look locally first of all. I think now, the gloves are off a little bit. It does mean that ... Say one of the UK roles that I recruited, the treasurer there said, “Well, actually this new working from home, they don’t have to come to the office, full stop. We would like them to pop in maybe once a month, a month in just to help with that process.” But that could be an overnight trip. 

Mike Richards: 

They come down, do the Tuesday, Wednesday. “Right, see you in 18 days’ time.” And I think it’s actually a new way of working. I think it really opens things up. I think we talked before, Craig, about would this also make people more international? Would someone in the UK do an international role into the US or vice versa? I’ve actually … When I’ve spoken to a couple of people and thought it through, I think the time zone differences make a heck of a difference. So it actually makes it quite tough. 

Mike Richards: 

It’s also, as the say, I’m recruiting these roles in Saudi Arabia. The actual time differences do present a real challenge with US. We were having a conference call just the other day. It was six o’clock in the morning in the US. It was late in the afternoon for Saudi. And I was talking to them from London. So it was right in between. There was one peak time slot for all of us, but then immediately it went the other way. So I think that would be more challenging as it were. 

Craig Jeffery: 

Yeah. I wanted to shift and bring the last part of the discussion to the salary survey. You continually run it every year. I know there’s a period where it’s particularly emphasized for people taking it. And we’ll include a link in the podcast notes, so people can continue to take that. But I wanted to hear if there’s anything that you found that represents some dramatic shift or something that’s accelerating, decelerating or some new finding that would be interesting to know. 

Mike Richards: 

It’s funny. Again, Craig bullied me before this call. Because you know what he’s like, listeners. He’s a pushy man. He wants the facts. He’s going to make me work for my bread and soup. 

Craig Jeffery: 

No free lunch. 

Mike Richards: 

No, exactly. Never is with Mr. Jeffrey. I’d still buy him a beer though. But anyway, that’s a different thing. Right. I looked at last year’s survey and some of the figures from there and we … Well, last survey was too big. We had great amount of information, but overly big. It was great, because we’ve got a great template and we’re bringing it down and concentrating more on the facts and figures, which people really want to know. 

Mike Richards: 

In terms of the figures, as Craig very kindly said, you just go to treasury salary.com. You take part, two minutes. And Craig asked me, “When does it stop?” It never stops. This is the amazing thing that every six months we ask people to update their information, just check. And it continues to roll and grow and grow and grow. And then we can take snapshots as we go and we can see where it was. 

Mike Richards: 

So I look back at a snapshot of last year, and just looking at some of the facts or figures and I was looking at … So currently, we have 75% men in the survey, 25% women. We need more ladies, but one of the things I haven’t done, which we will do in analysis is just what levels we’re taking part. Are all the treasury managers happen to be ladies? We’re going to deep dive in some of that and produce that for some of the people that read it. 

Mike Richards: 

So this year in the survey, I’ve noticed that about two thirds of people are happy. About a third are unhappy. And a lot of the time when I deep dive into that, it’s about self-direction. Whereas last year, in actual fact overall, and particularly the senior levels, a lot more people were happy. So you’re talking of around the 80, 90% mark. I think it was 85% in certain categories. 

Mike Richards: 

And people say, “Oh, well, that varies.” And it does. So treasury analysts, you are the unhappiest people. So keep on registering and keep calling me. But as you become a treasurer, you’re happiest in your career, and there’s a direct correlation. And when I’ve interviewed people, I’ve found out it’s about self-direction, it’s about actualization. If you’re an analyst, you might be told every week what to do by the boss. 

Mike Richards: 

If you’re a treasurer, you might sit with your CFO and say, “Right. The targets for this year are this, and I’ll see you in a month.” And it’s not just that. That’s a blanket phrase, but it’s generally has an effect on your happiness. But actually, again, one of the things that I’ve seen has changed this year is we’re currently running at … 76% of our survey are considering new opportunities. 

Mike Richards: 

People were happier or there were less people looking before. Similar size at the time, but in actual fact, I think it was down in the late 60s. It’s not too much of a move, but in actual fact, more people are considering new opportunities. Only issue is… 

Craig Jeffery: 

There are none. 

Mike Richards: 

It’s static. Everyone’s like, “Let me out,” sort of thing. Someone said to me the other day, “Well, hang on. If there is no bonus, surely people won’t look to move.” And I said, “No, that’s not the case.” “Why?” I said like this, “Everyone’s going to look to move whether or not they’re getting the bonus. Now whether or not there are jobs there, that’s a different story.” And that’s just down to the markets and things like that. So it was interesting, actually, looking at a lot of the figures. 

Mike Richards: 

And the only other … Not the only other. One of the other stats I always find amazing is when we go through it, we ask people why they’re happy or unhappy. “Why are you looking for a new job.” And it’s a salary survey. And typically, you might expect, “Oh, it’s about the money. It’s about the money.” On a scale of the 10 factors, money usually is number seven, if not eight, every time. 

Mike Richards: 

That the people that are bothered about … It’s about your boss being nice to you. It’s about learning things. It’s all the other factors rather than it’s work. Doesn’t make … “I’ve got poor boss, manager, work-life balance.” We’ve got all those. And then, why do people are happy? Good work-life balance. Good boss manager. People are actually people. And then it’s the other factors. 

Mike Richards: 

It’s not just the paycheck at the end of the month, even though we assess people’s paychecks at the end of the month. That’s what we do. I find it that dichotomy really interesting every time, and it’s never changed. When I first ever did it, 15 years ago, started the salary survey, I thought it was going to say, “Oh, everyone’s annoyed about their money.” And that’s why they’re interesting. It never was. 

Mike Richards: 

It’s about every other factor and they want to be paid fairly, but the other factors are the things that drag them in the door or push them out the door. 

Craig Jeffery: 

Your comment about the increased level of unhappiness or decreased level of happiness and the distinction between the levels is interesting. And I’m also wondering, do you capture other demographic information like age or things like that. Do we get happier as we get older in the careers? Are we more impatient earlier? More patient later? 

Mike Richards: 

We capture information such as, are you a man or a woman, because we were able to measure that and things like that. I would love to … I can probably guess most people’s ages, because I know all the participants. We verify them ourselves. Unfortunately I’m not allowed to ask it. I’ve been caught, “You’ve got to age. You’re silly.” No. I’ve asked about that in the past. It’s very tricky. 

Mike Richards: 

But it’s funny. As you say there, I get a lot of feedback on the Zoom calls. We do the groups and people say, “I’m a 50-year-old and I’m not getting the opportunities. What do you advise?” And we try and give advice in the situation. But again, a lot of the time I think people do get hung up on age. We can make age a powerful weapon, and it can be used for good and evil. But I always try and coach people that, “Yes, there are always going to be some companies recruiting that are ageist.” 

Craig Jeffery: 

I guess I was thinking, personally I remember being very impatient early in my career. I wanted new opportunities, new responsibility instantly. And it’s like, “A week has gone by. Why haven’t things happened?” And I suspect I’ve mellowed a bit in head and patience. So that was the source of that. Those are some really great headlines and information. 

Craig Jeffery: 

But are there any other trends that you see emerging or former trends that have stopped or reversed in this? 

Mike Richards: 

Again, it’s going to probably … We’ve got a big surge of people taking part, which will be great in the survey. Please do take part, treasurysalary.com. Just got to drop it in there. When I started to compare it year on year and look at some of the salaries, I think there will be … I want to do more analysis, but the trend I’m seeing at the moment is that salaries have continued to increase, but it’s been more of a marginal increase. 

Mike Richards: 

So again, without doing detailed in-depth analysis, but I am seeing people said, “Oh no, that’s it. All salaries have stopped and everything else.” When people are in the roles they’ve been in, there has been until now a marginal increase. But bearing in mind, the COVID’s only been in place for four to six months. I’m going to have some interesting conversations with some of these guys in aerospace. 

Mike Richards: 

Talking to them and talking to the guys in retail, because we’ve heard and we know of some of our clients have had to take 20% pay cuts for periods of time. Just to take a real haircut and say, “Look, if you can’t take it, there’s the door.” And they said, “No, we’ll take it. Thank you very much.” But what we’ve also seen is that the flip side, these delivery food services technology, they’ve been more resilient than this. Is that going to impact on their salaries? 

Mike Richards: 

The answer is we don’t know fully yet. I think we will … Again, I’ll be, not just anecdotally, but trying to deep dive with some of those guys to understand how it has affected them and wanting to know exactly what they’ve found. I don’t know what you’ve heard from your listeners or some of the guys that you have spoken to, Craig. Just to flip it back, your question, on there. But have you heard from some of those clients or what the effect has been on their employment sort of thing or? 

Craig Jeffery: 

Yeah. I think you described something as a pause or static, that being the case with quite a bit on the salary front. Some organizations furloughs, take a week off a month or you’ve got to take two weeks or 20%, 25% pay cut. A number of those things, especially as people were taking that fort mentality. “We’ve got to shore up liquidity. How do we stop the outflow while we’re seeing how things settle out?” So yeah, it’s a time where it’s hard to measure in the midst of this. 

Craig Jeffery: 

So I think your words were we’re wise. And I look forward to seeing more information on your analysis from that. It’ll be quite fascinating to see how this may have disrupted… 

Mike Richards: 

Well, I’ve started to see it come back though as well. That’s one of the things is that I spoke to a client again … Well, this client I spoke to today, he said they’d been prepared to have a cut. “They said that we might have to,” they didn’t in the end. But also a couple of other clients I’ve heard from, one of which said, again, they did take a cut, but actually only lasted a couple of months and reduced work, reduced hours, reduced salary. 

Mike Richards: 

We’re now … Actually, he said, “Oh yeah, now things are getting back to normal.” “All right.” He said, “Yeah, now we’re back full time. They’re bringing back the furloughed guys. Actually, they’re not taking a grant that they were thinking about taking.” So again, it goes back to earlier on the show, people didn’t know what to expect, because it was brand new. And it was like, “Oh, this is fresh. And how do we do this?” People have dealt with it now. And they got over it a little bit. 

Craig Jeffery: 

Yeah. Thanks Mike. I know we’ve covered a number of topics. Any final thoughts as we wrap up this episode? 

Mike Richards: 

Just keep up the good fight, people. It is getting back to normal. I think if you need treasury career advice, well, you know where to get it. So give us a call, and very happy to always have a chat with people. And I love listening to Craig’s podcasts. And we interview a treasurer every week, so I’ll do a quick … treasurycareercorner.com. Go there. Listen to the best treasurers after you’ve listened to Strategic Treasurer, of course. 

Mike Richards: 

Listen to that, and then bookmark me as well. That’s fine. A bit of shameless self-promotion there. That’s not bad. General terms, I think all the treasury people we talk to, treasury dudes, this goes back to the beginning. This is what treasury professionals were born to do; planning, getting through a financial crisis. And I’m seeing everybody recovering from it now. And how we’ve come out of it, it’s a different world with different working patterns and everything else. 

Mike Richards: 

I think at the end of the day, everyone should be proud of what they’ve done so far. And yeah, I’m very hopeful for the rest of the year. It’s going to be different, but it’s still got their strengths. And I think treasury professional, I can’t wait to see … People will start to see each other next year and have that networking. And I can’t wait to see more treasury people and get together again and see you Mr. Jeffrey for a beer or three. 

OUTRO: 

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OUTRO: 

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